Topic: furiten if meld tiles are in discard?

is a player in furiten if they have an exposed melded set and one of those same tiles is in their discard pile?

at our table on Sunday we agreed that an exposed meld that has the same tile in discard is NOT furiten- yet MahjongTime does not agree- any tiles in any part of the hand that are also in discard causes furiten.

Four Winds Mahjong DOES agree and allows for ron if you have a melded set and duplicate tiles in discard…

anyone have a final say?

You see, this is why I declare a kan at every opportunity.  …I may be missing something huge here, but I'm not sure why the meld makes a difference? Most VIDEO GAMES I've played are pretty strict: When a tile is in your discard pool, you can't win on it.  If you have a multi-sided wait which includes a tile in your pool, you're furiten for EVERYTHING. Furiten is furiten is furiten, until your wait changes to something which does not include the possibility of winning on a tile you've discarded.
Unfortunately, I can't really speak about "live" play because I've never seen the situation arise and my live riichi-style mahjong experience is fairly limited.

I've seen other forums have arguments about this subject which go on for pages and pages…Count me in as being interested in what the final USPML-sanctioned rule is.   

You can't win on it- but if it already exists in your hand, and its in your pool, can you still win the hand if you win on a different tile?

Whether or not your hand has exposed melds or whether or not a tile exists in your hand has no bearing on whether or not your hand is in furiten. Furiten is based entirely on the waits of a tenpai hand (thus it is also impossible for a non-tenpai hand to be furiten). Here's the official furiten rules, paraphrased:

If you have a hand that is tenpai, and if ANY one of the tiles that could complete your hand is in your discards, you are in furiten. If you manage to rearrange your hand so that this is no longer the case, you are no longer in furiten.

If you have a hand that is tenpai and you decline to call Ron on ANY of the tiles that could complete your hand that were discarded by another player (EVEN if declaring Ron would have been illegal due to lack of yaku), you are in furiten. However, this furiten is temporary and only lasts until you next physically draw a tile.

If you are in Riichi, and have declined to declare Ron on ANY tile that could complete your hand since you made your Riichi declaration, you are in furiten until the end of the hand.

While in furiten, you may not declare Ron on ANY tile. You may, however, still Tsumo. You may also declare Tenpai in the case of an exhaustive draw.

Hopefully this clarifies things a bit?

We are almost there- here is the last item that no mahjong ruleset anywhere seems to clarify.

From your post:

you are furiten "if ANY one of the tiles that could complete your hand is in your discards"

Does that mean if any one of the tiles that you are waiting for is in your discards, or any of the tiles already in your hand is in the discards?

If I am waiting on a 3 Character, but have a 4 Bamboo in my discards and in my hand, am I furiten?

From what I understand, furiten is completely dependent on your wait. So, if a tile that is in your hand is also in your discard pile, but it is not a tile that could complete your hand, then no, you are not furiten.

stevel said

If I am waiting on a 3 Character, but have a 4 Bamboo in my discards and in my hand, am I furiten?

draco is correct, you are not furiten in that case.

Furiten is based entirely on your waits.  4 Bamboo is not "a tile that can complete your hand" because if you drew one you would not have a valid hand.  Because of this, the fact that you have a 4 Bamboo in your hand and your discard is not relevant to your Furiten status.

If you had a 3 Character in your discard, you would be in Furiten, but if that's your only wait, that's the only tile you have to concern yourself with.

I found out the problem of why I couldn't even Ron on Mahjongtime- under their Riichi rules, an All Simples hand must be 100% concealed… it had nothing to do with furiten after all. There can be no melded sets and that was the issue.

I've never played there, but it looks like Mahjong Time copies the rules (and certainly the scores/yaku reference) from the European Mahjong Association.

The EMA infamously play with Kuitan Nashi - the rule which permits Tanyao (All Simples) in an open hand is disallowed.

Glad you found your answer.

Bart

yep they emailed me to clarify… its actually good practice to try to stay concealed anyways… i'm glad at least i'm getting enough understanding of the game to know the difference!

now I just need to learn how to score…

In Japanese mahjong your hand should always be played closed, except in situations when it shouldn't.

If it helps, there's a section on the process and terminology of scoring in my PDF guide (see first link in sig below - hosted on this very site).

Personally I stick to playing video-games and let the software take care of that side of things.

I have printed, read, and reread your pdf bart- its a really amazing. I play in Manhattan with the gang who organize this web site and its the perfect review for the train ride in...

Another reader (and rereader) - excelente!

Possibly a few more readers if you get anyone on the train looking, curious and confused, over your shoulder. Must look pretty bizarre to the uninitiated…