Topic: Will your ruleset be actual ari-ari riichi mahjong or something else?

Hello!

I was wondering if the USPML has codified their ruleset yet and whether it would be consistent with riichi rules as played in Japan?

I'm not in a place to make demands or even suggestions, but I was hoping to see a place with ari-ari rules as standard. (kuitan / open tanyao, and atozuke ON)

I'm not asking this to start a flame war or anything but given 4 years of conversation with a certain organization, I only managed now to get this pearl out in English concerning Furiten.

Thanks and good luck to your league!
-Senechal.

Firstly, congratulations on being our first post!

As far as rules go, we've been playing with rules that are identical to the JPML's B Rules.  To be specific:

• Atozuke
• Ippatsu
• Uradora
• Kandora
• Kanuradora
• Kuitan
• Nagashimangan
• Renhou (mangan)
• Tempai Renchan
• Tochuryukyoku

Additionally, regarding the thread you linked to, we are currently diverging from the EMA rules considering temporary furiten in riichi.  Or, rather, we currently play in the manner that Jenn described - if you are in riichi and you let a winning tile go by, you are in furiten for the rest of the game, if you're not in riichi when this happened you are furiten until your next draw.

So (to my knowledge) this should be pretty consistent with what you'd encounter if you played in Japan.  There are some discussions involving using the A Rules for ranked matches, and while I definitely see the purpose in this (eliminating unexpected dora and any sudden hand value changes), it hasn't been decided on yet.  We will be drafting our official ruleset in the coming weeks, as well as building out some pages here to explain the rules terms we'll be using for people who aren't already familiar with them.  Suggestions are, of course, very welcome!

Excellent screenname.

Good job in deciding against nonstandard yakuman. Although daisharin doesn't really matter either way. (as per other thread)

I think this proves that you guys know the rules well enough to ensure that you'll be around for quitesome time to come.  

I would recommend taking out:


* Nagashimangan (confusing, too rare)
* Renhou (very un-standardized, arguably unbalanced)
* Tochuryukyoku (confusing, time consuming, serve little/no strategic purpose)

You make a fair point regarding Nagashi mangan and tochû-ryû-kyoku. The latter does indeed serve basically no purpose - the point of a mulligan system is to allow the game to restart if everyone has particularly bad hands, not just because everyone happens to have the same wind that they're looking to get rid of.

Nagashi mangan, though it comes up extremely rarely, is fun to say, and a fun thing to pretend you're going for, or to see how close you might be to it purely by chance even though you're not going for it. I cannot count the times, playing with these guys, that the word "nagashi" has come up - I vote that it should be kept in, if only for the fun factor of your pond actually being relevant in some way, and allowing for joking comments about how close you might be to actually pulling it off, even though you totally won't pull it off in the end.

Finally, that brings us to Blessing of Man, which I don't think is unbalanced at all. It comes up so extremely rarely, I think it's only fair that it be worth what it is. Why nominate Blessing of Man to be eliminated, and not Blessing of Heaven, Blessing of Earth, or Bottom of the Sea? All of these work in pretty much the same way.

Benjamin said

I would recommend taking out:

 
    * Nagashimangan (confusing, too rare)
    * Renhou (very standardized, arguably unbalanced)
    * Tochuryukyoku (confusing, time consuming, serve little/no strategic purpose)

Perhaps eliminating tochuryukyoku and allowing kyushukyuhai? Most players (myself included, usually) would be tempted to go for kokushi in this case, but if a hand is particularly awful it would be nice to know the option is there.

Toranosuke said

Nagashi mangan, though it comes up extremely rarely, is fun to say, and a fun thing to pretend you're going for, or to see how close you might be to it purely by chance even though you're not going for it. I cannot count the times, playing with these guys, that the word "nagashi" has come up - I vote that it should be kept in, if only for the fun factor

I agree that nagashi's fun, but I dont think that's a good argument for its inclusion in a national official rule set. There are many organizations in Japan that include it and many that don't. Since it's strategic addition is minimal-on the rare opportunities that it becomes possible to achieve it is easy for an opponent to interfere-and since it has a significant potential to muck up corresponding rules and beginners in general, I think it's best left to casual games.

Toranosuke said

Finally, that brings us to Blessing of Man, which I don't think is unbalanced at all. It comes up so extremely rarely, I think it's only fair that it be worth what it is. Why nominate Blessing of Man to be eliminated, and not Blessing of Heaven, Blessing of Earth, or Bottom of the Sea? All of these work in pretty much the same way.

Tenhou and Chihou are both standard yaku. All variants of riichi include them. In fact, all asian variants of mahjong include them. The only way to justify breaking this uniformity would be to argue that they break the game's strategy in some way but since they occur so rarely it's probably not worth it to even try.

Renhou, on the other hand, is more of a "local rule" that people know of but do not include in "official" rulesets, although there are exceptions. It's biggest problem in terms of uniformity is how much it's worth. Renhou's value is usually set at baiman, although some people use mangan and some say its a yakuman. Other difficulties include what to do if there's a call in the first round and how it combines with other yaku. Moreover, in my opinion it's unbalancing because East can't use it and West and North get extra chances. In any case, unless there's a very good reason otherwise, the KISS rule generally applies with this sort of stuff. Less headaches = more people learning the game.

As for Mozz911's suggestion about kyushuu, I agree that it can make certain hands much less frustrating. However, again I'm not sure this is a good reason to include it. Kyushu's non-standard and is common enough that it can take up a lot of time (re-deals).
This alone should be reason to exclude it.

Furthermore, most kyushu hands are more useful than one would think. 4th place can use them for yakuman and 1st place can use them to fold easily. Discouraging these choices makes strategy more shallow.

EDIT: Forgot to address houtei/haitei. These are not uncommon at all. When you consider how they affect the choice of one's final discard, or of claiming a tile to give one's self the last draw, they should be considered to be common.

Benjamin said

Less headaches = more people learning the game.

This is probably the most solid argument for most of the aforementioned exclusions. I've played a wide assortment of Japanese mahjong videogames and usually find that renhou, nagashi, daisharin etc. are usually not included in the ones that are, shall we say, more professional and not focused primarily on removing your opponent's clothes or getting twenty-five tenhou per game. This gives me the impression that these rules are fitted to much more casual, or as Benjamin said, "local" play.

That's also a very good point of kyushu's effect on strategy.  Interestingly enough, the last time you and I were at a table, my final game began with a "nearly-kyushu" assortment of junk tiles and still managed to evolve into something decent, so there is definitely something to be said for that.

Benjamin said

Tenhou and Chihou are both standard yaku. All variants of riichi include them. In fact, all asian variants of mahjong include them.

The so-called "Chinese Official" rules don't. At least according to what I have read they don't.

Yes, you are correct. MCR ("Chinese Official") is the exception. It's also the only set of rules created top-down by a government. I don't know how this affected their popularity but China being China I can only guess.

That being said, by all standards I know of in Japan, eliminating Chihou or Tenhou in riichi would be extremely exceptional. Eliminating Renhou would be relatively normal. Add that to the fact that renhou is a pain in the neck to enforce and I think you have a good argument for its exclusion.

Tenhou and chihou are pretty much a part of everyone's mahjong game. Although I am not currently familiar with the official Chinese competition rules and we have no way of knowing how these rules were embraced by China, I cannot imagine anyone not wanting to hold on to the hope of getting either of these when scores are at their lowest. I can't say I've ever seen an authentic tenhou (have any of you?). Though they offer no strategic element, things like that are a part of what makes the game fun.  While open riichi is not generally recognized in most official Japanese rulesets, I was pleased to see it included in USPML's once I learned it did not include that silly "automatic yakuman" rule. Though it would be rare for someone to do it, it is still exciting to watch when attempted, thus adding a level of enjoyment to the game.

Reading through this discussion has made me realize exactly why riichi mahjong is such a wonderful style.  It is irritating to see someone win a succession of random hands without any thought or blind luck.  Taiwanese mahjong is full of those easy, superfluous point qualifiers - points are awarded for having an open kan, for having two suits in your hand, winning on the middle tile of a run, etc. While this makes for a fast paced game with often unpredictable scoring, it subtracts immensely from the enjoyment of strategy / decision-making.  

Robert said

Benjamin said

Tenhou and Chihou are both standard yaku. All variants of riichi include them. In fact, all asian variants of mahjong include them.

The so-called "Chinese Official" rules don't. At least according to what I have read they don't.

MCR indeed does not score either, nor Renhou. Zung Jung also does not score Chihou, if I understand that to be Blessing of Man, but it does score Blessing of Earth (win off dealer's first discard) (Renhou).

Tenhou (天和) is when the dealer begins the game with a complete winning hand. The kanji 天 means heaven.
Chihou (地和) is when a non-dealer's first fourteen tiles form a complete winning hand, all fourteen tiles being self-drawn. The kanji 地 means earth or ground.
Renhou (人和) is– I forget exactly how it works, but I know it involves a non-dealer winning off a discard (ron). The kanji 人 means person.

Thank you, Robert. My Japanese is nearly non-existant.



Zung Jung says it scores Blessing of Heaven (dealer wins with initial 14 tiles), and Blessing of Earth ("non-East wins off East's first discard"). Clearly, Zung Jung's idea of Blessing of Earth is not common, hence my confusion.

It makes sense that the Blessing of Man would be the discard from another player (as opposed to the deal [Heaven] or the wall [Earth]).

http://www.gamedesign.jp/flash/mahjong/mahjong_e.html

This page states that Renhou ("Ren-How") is "non-dealer winning before first draw."